About Prima Quran

And the Messenger has said, “O my Lord, indeed my people have taken this Qur’an as [a thing] abandoned.”

(Holy Qur’an 25:30)

With the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. All types of true and perfect praise are due to Allah, Lord, Cherisher and Sustainer of all existence. I ask that peace and blessings be upon the last and final Messenger, our Noble Prophet (saw).  Everything that is good and beneficial with in this web site, all the praise is due to Allah (swt).  All of the mistakes are mine.  Whom ever Allah (swt) guides no one can misguide them.  Whom ever Allah (swt) leaves to stray no one can guide them.

The opening citation of the Holy Qur’an sets the tone.  I feel strongly that we the Muslims have gone far from the primary source of our faith, namely the Holy Qur’an.

This web site is more about my own personal views and reflections.  You could even say a personal journey of my thoughts and feelings on matters related to Islam.

I would like very much for people to be able to take something useful from this web site.  If this website can be a voice for the voiceless than all praise belongs to Allah (swt).

I feel there maybe many Muslims out there struggling with their faith.  It could be a particular issue in theology, or jurisprudence that has given them many sleepless nights.  It could be that a person may have suffered severe emotional and psychological abuse at the hands of seemingly benign Sufi tariqah. A tariqah that demanded absolute obedience, and allegiance. This could have ended up being a severely traumatic experience for that person. Rather than being  spiritually liberating, it could have been spiritually draining.

It could be that a person was confronted with a view with in the Islamic paradigm that focused so much on legalism that it left the person feeling hopelessly encumbered.   ‘Islam is such a burden’ they may feel.

It could be that some Muslims are on the verge of leaving their faith.  They may well feel, ‘Well, if this is Islam than I want no part of it.’

Some Muslims maybe so disgusting by the sectarianism and the infighting.  They may ask, ‘Is there  really a way through this madness?

Fear not! I believe that together we will discover that Islam is a lot more vast than the various factions with in the Islamic paradigm would have any one of us to believe.

What is the tone of this web site? 

I would like us to take a look at the following verses of the Holy Qur’an.

So by mercy from Allah , [O Muhammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude and harsh in heart, they would have fleed from about you. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult them in the matter. And when you have decided, then rely upon Allah . Indeed, Allah loves those who rely [upon Him]. (Holy Qur’an 3:159)

Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.” (Holy Qur’an 16:125)

The example of Pharaoh. 

“O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me.” (Holy Qur’an 28:38) 

“Go to Pharaoh. Indeed, he has transgressed.” (Holy Qur’an 20:24)

So we can see that Pharaoh has committed the highest form of sin against Allah (swt) namely the claim of divinity!  Allah (swt) also says that he was a transgressor!

Nonetheless look at the way in which Allah (swt) ask Moses and Aaron (peace be upon them both) to conduct themselves while speaking with him.

“And speak to him with gentle speech that perhaps he may be reminded or fear Allah.” (Holy Qur’an 20:44)

“Virtue and evil are not equal. If you replace evil habits by virtuous ones, you will certainty find that your enemies will become your intimate friends.  (Holy Qur’an 41:34)

“If Allah were to punish men according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His Servants. (Holy Qur’an 35:45)

Allah (swt) is the Most Merciful!  If Allah (swt) was to exact his justice upon us (a frail humanity) he would have wiped out everyone and everything.

As one Imam has stated, “Do not look down upon others because their sins are different than yours.”   How true is this?

So with this being the preamble let it be known that I am weak and only human.
I wish that we could avoid sarcasm, snark and malicious comments.  It is important to realizes that the goal of us all is Allah (swt).

“Verily, you (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.” (Holy Quran 28:56)

If the best example the Blessed Messenger (saw) could not guide whom he liked to the truth it would be the epitome of arrogance and futility to think that anyone of us could force another to capitulate to our position.

I think that once we recognize and respect that guidance is the sole jurisdiction of Allah (swt) we can take the ego and the ‘I’ out of our discussions and exchanges.   Because than what this becomes is a journey about truth to The Truth.  It does not become about ‘you’ and ‘I’ ,but about us on a mutual journey of inquiry and exchange.

With that said I sincerely hope and pray that Allah (swt) would bless us  with his guidance and grace. I hope that if there is something in Prima-Qur’an that is factually wrong or in error that Allah (swt) would open my heart and my eyes to accept this.

So what is Prima-Qur’an?

Prima is from the Latin word which simply means ‘First’ or ‘foremost’.

Prima Qur’an is about using the Holy Qur’an, primarily for guidance in matters of theology, jurisprudence and spirituality.

Prima-Qur’an rejects any source that clashes with the teachings of the Holy Qur’an.  It is about Muslims going back to the Holy Qur’an first. It is about Muslims looking to the Holy Qur’an first and foremost for guidance and healing.

The position of Prima-Qur’an  is distinct from from Sola-Qur’an.

Sola is Latin for ‘only’ or ‘alone’.

Sola Qur’an– That is to say to take the Holy Qur’an alone.

 Sola-Qur’an does not allow for Muslims to take for guidance in theology, jurisprudence and spirituality anything other than the Holy Qur’an.  Sola-Qur’an discounts the oral tradition or ‘hadith’ entirely.

That is not the position of Prima-Qur’an.

Prima-Qur’an also sets itself apart from Para-Qur’an.  (Sunni & Shi’a factions for example)

Para is from Latin and means ‘along side’ or ‘adjacent’ to something.

That is to say to put as anything as authority along side or even superseding the Holy Qur’an  in matters of theology, jurisprudence and spirituality.

Para-Qur’an is easily the position adopted by most of the world’s Muslims today.

So for illustration purposes you can see that the stack of books on the top is what I feel represents the majority of today’s Muslims, in their approach to the sacred sources.

They will say Qur’an & Sunnah or Qur’an & Hadith or Qur’an and 12 Imams.

Where as the stack of books on the bottom is what I feel represents the Prima-Qur’an position. That you are most welcome to reference and utilize books of history, jurisprudence, ahadith, fiqh, tafsir and so forth but that the Prima-Qur’an position is to say: Qur’an than Sunnah or Qur’an than Hadith.

books               43810

Harith ibn Amr reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, sent Mu’adh to Yemen and he said, “How will you judge?” Mu’adh said, “I will judge according to the Book of Allah.” The Prophet said, “What if it is not in the Book of Allah?” Mu’adh said, “Then with the tradition (sunnah) of the Messenger of Allah.” The Prophet said, “What if it is not in the tradition of the Messenger of Allah?” Mu’adh said, “Then I will strive to form an opinion (ijtihad).” The Prophet said, “All praise is due to Allah who has made suitable the messenger of the Messenger of Allah.

Source: (Sunan al-Tirmidhī 1327)

Prima-Qur’an invites Muslims to take the Holy Qur’an as their primary source for theological, legal and spiritual guidance.

Prima-Qur’an also invites Muslims to take ‘fiqh’ or understanding that is tawatur or ‘continuous mass testimony and practice’ across all schools of jurisprudence.

That is to say we take the sunnah of the Blessed Messenger (saw).

A clear principle of this is the statement of  Allah (swt).

“And obey Allah  and obey the Messenger. But if you turn away, then Our Messenger is responsible only for conveying the message clearly. (Holy Quran 64:12)

This verse above becomes very important in distinguishing my position from Sola-Qur’an or ‘Qur’an only’ Muslims.   I believe that the Blessed Messenger (saw) not only was a ‘mouth piece’ for the Holy Qur’an.  I believe that the Blessed Messenger (saw) must have explained the message clearly.

“Then, it is on Us to explain it.” (The Holy Qur’an 75:19)

If it was the sole job of the Blessed Messenger (saw) to simply be a mouth piece of the Holy Qur’an this verse above would be sufficient.  Yet, we see in quite a number of places that there is a corollary, that not only does Allah (swt) give the Blessed Messenger (saw) the revelation, He (swt) explains it to the Blessed Messenger (saw).

So in Prima-Qur’an we understand this as follows:

The Holy Qur’an as a revelation was given via:

Allah-Gabriel-The Messenger- to His (saw) community.

The Holy Qur’an as an explanation was given via:

Allah-Gabriel-The Messenger-to His (saw) community.

Thus, not only does the Blessed Messenger (saw) give the people the revelation he explains to the people as well.

The Holy Qur’an makes it abundantly clear that the Blessed Messenger (saw) is a universal Messenger with a universal message.

O mankind! The Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe: it is better for you. And if you disbelieve, to Allah belongs what is in the heavens and in the earth. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. (Holy Qur’an 4:17o)

I reject the claim that because the Blessed Messenger (saw) is not with us today than the above verse does not mean anything. I reject the claim that because the Blessed Messenger (saw) did not physically go to every human being that he was not a universal messenger.

So this leads me to believe the following:

1) The Blessed Messenger (saw) delivered the Holy Qur’an.

2) The Blessed Messenger (saw) explained the Holy Qur’an.

3) The Holy Qur’an is universal guidance.

4) The Blessed Messenger (saw) is a universal Messenger.

Conclusion:

The Message of and the explanation of the Holy Qur’an as given by the Blessed Messenger (saw) should be able to reach all of humanity.

Question: How does the understanding of the Holy Qur’an reach us?

Answer: Through the ‘practice that was mass transmitted’ known as ‘Sunnah’ that does not contradict, conflict with or go against the clear teachings and/or spirit of the Holy Qur’an.

We have to get to the understanding of Islam prior to the civil war and factions that appeared among the Muslims.

Think about it like this.  If the position of the  ‘Quran-alone’ Muslims is correct than what factors caused those early Muslims to abandon their ‘Quran alone’ position?  Everyone among the Muslims today are making claims.

Together we need to be like archaeologist and dig through the strata of disparate historical narratives, jurisprudence, and factionalism, among the Muslims, to find that pristine Islam, that existed prior to the Civil War.

This is why we ask Muslims to look at the jurisprudence of the Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i, Hanbali, Ja’fari, Zaydi, Ibadi, and Thahiri schools for answers.  We also invite Muslims to look at the rulings of Imams such as Al Awaza’i, Sufyan Al-Thawri, Said Ibn Al-Musayyib, Al-Layth ibn sa’dand Ibrahim Al-Nakhai among others for answers.

“Blessed is He who sent down the Furqan (the Criterion) upon His Servant that he may be to the worlds a warner.” (Holy Qur’an 25:1)

al-furqan

Prima-Qur’an endorses the Amman Message.  I would highly encourage you to read it.

http://ammanmessage.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=74

The ‘Amman Message’ was endorsed by scholars, and notable Muslim preachers and representatives of various Muslim theological, and juristic approaches. It states:

“In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

May peace and blessings be upon the Prophet Muhammad and his pure and noble family

(1) Whosoever is an adherent to one of the four Sunni schools (Mathahib) of Islamic jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i and Hanbali), the two Shi’i schools of Islamic jurisprudence (Ja`fari andZaydi), the Ibadi school of Islamic jurisprudence and the Thahiri school of Islamic jurisprudence, is a Muslim. Declaring that person an apostate is impossible and impermissible. Verily his (or her) blood, honour, and property are inviolable. Moreover, in accordance with the Shaykh Al-Azhar’sfatwa, it is neither possible nor permissible to declare whosoever subscribes to the Ash`ari creed or whoever practices real Tasawwuf (Sufism) an apostate. Likewise, it is neither possible nor permissible to declare whosoever subscribes to true Salafi thought an apostate.
Equally, it is neither possible nor permissible to declare as apostates any group of Muslims who believes in God, Glorified and Exalted be He, and His Messenger (may peace and blessings be upon him) and the pillars of faith, and acknowledges the five pillars of Islam, and does not deny any necessarily self-evident tenet of religion.

(2) There exists more in common between the various schools of Islamic jurisprudence than there is difference between them. The adherents to the eight schools of Islamic jurisprudence are in agreement as regards the basic principles of Islam. All believe in Allah (God), Glorified and Exalted be He, the One and the Unique; that the Noble Qur’an is the Revealed Word of God; and that our master Muhammad, may blessings and peace be upon him, is a Prophet and Messenger unto all mankind. All are in agreement about the five pillars of Islam: the two testaments of faith (shahadatayn); the ritual prayer (salat); almsgiving (zakat); fasting the month of Ramadan (sawm), and the Hajj to the sacred house of God (in Mecca). All are also in agreement about the foundations of belief: belief in Allah (God), His angels, His scriptures, His messengers, and in the Day of Judgment, in Divine Providence in good and in evil. Disagreements between the ‘ulama(scholars) of the eight schools of Islamic jurisprudence are only with respect to the ancillary branches of religion (furu`) and not as regards the principles and fundamentals (usul) [of the religion of Islam]. Disagreement with respect to the ancillary branches of religion (furu`) is a mercy. Long ago it was said that variance in opinion among the ‘ulama (scholars) “is a good affair”.

(3) Acknowledgement of the schools of Islamic jurisprudence (Mathahib) within Islam means adhering to a fundamental methodology in the issuance of fatwas: no one may issue a fatwa without the requisite personal qualifications which each school of Islamic jurisprudence determines [for its own adherents]. No one may issue a fatwa without adhering to the methodology of the schools of Islamic jurisprudence. No one may claim to do unlimited Ijtihad and create a new school of Islamic jurisprudence or to issue unacceptable fatwas that take Muslims out of the principles and certainties of the Shari`ah and what has been established in respect of its schools of jurisprudence.”

In other words the various schools of jurisprudence are a basic skeleton.

I understand the term ‘skeleton’ here to mean- frame – framework – carcass – outline – shell

Thus, we are not asking anyone to abandon the ‘skeleton’ of their respective schools of jurisprudence.

There is only one caveat here.  If you find something in your research, and your studies that you deeply feel clashes with what you find in the Holy Qur’an than you should take what is certain; that being the Holy Qur’an.

prima-quran

The sectarianism has deeply divided the Muslim community.   It has not allowed us to ‘think outside the box’.

It does not allow us to consider the fiqh (jurisprudence) and aapproaches that others may take, simply because we consider them ‘the other’.

I have often thought how many marriages would be saved in the Sunni community, if the Shi’a position on divorced was adopted.

I personally find the Ibadi position on leadership to be more egalitarian and in the true spirit of Islam.  This is contrasted with the Shi’a view, giving preference to the ‘Ahl Bayt’ or the ‘Household’.  It is also contrasted with the Sunni view that right of rule belongs to a particular tribe.

When you see these divergent schools of jurisprudence agree on something like praying the five daily prayers you can be certain that this was what Allah (swt) ordained for the Blessed Messenger (saw) and his community.

Finally, as I believe in upholding the Holy Qur’an above anything else the following should outline the position of Prima-Quran.

These are positions that Prima-Qur’an upholds as we find them to be fundamental in respecting the timeless wisdom, beauty, and integrity contained with in our most guarded revelation.

 #1) The Holy Qur’an is divinely protected revelation from Almighty Allah.  It is tawatur or ‘continuous mass testimony’ that cannot be superseded by anything else.

#2) (The sunnah, jurisprudence and hadith are supplementary; their authority never over rides the revelation. We sift through this information because we believe the Blessed Messenger (saw) explained the revelation.)

 #3) The Holy Qur’an is complete.

We reject the claim of many  scholars of the Sunni faction in particular that the Qur’an does not contain the entirety of the Qur’an; but only what Allah intended for us to have.

We also reject the claim of Rashad Khalifa and his ‘Qur’an only’ faction that has taken two verses out of the Qur’an; as they did not conform to their numerical  suppositions.

#3) The Holy Qur’an is not abrogated by anything including itself.

#4) Muslims are advised to continue to follow their respective schools of jurisprudence; but should feel free to abandon any position, if they feel it contradicts with the Holy Qur’an, and the mass transmitted sunnah.

#5) Muslims are advised to follow the mass transmitted sunnah. We believe it is the Blessed Messenger (saw) conveying the message of the Holy Qur’an clearly, and put into practice by his community.  It should not go against a clear teaching or position of the Holy Qur’an.

An example of mass transmitted sunnah: The rakats in the prayers. (2,4,4,3,4)  The five daily prayers themselves.

sunni-shiasufi-salafi

These graphs above reflect more and more the reality of educated and well informed Muslims. There are Sunni Muslims who are not convinced about certain aspects of Sunni doctrine.  Thus, these people become enamored with the Shi’a Muslims.  However; upon closer inspection they find that Shi’a Islam is riddled with many of the same issues that Sunni Islam has and possibly more.  Like wise there are Shi’a Muslims who are not convinced about certain aspects of Shi’a doctrine. Thus, these people become enamored with Sunni Muslims.  Yet upon closer scrutiny they find the grass is not greener on the other side.   The same can be said for those who find excess in Sufism and those who find Salafism too legalistic.   There are many Muslims who love Islam but are not necessarily in love with being pigeon holed into these paradigms.

Unfortunately we Muslims (both converts and those raised Muslims) are the products of surroundings.  We have been coined with terms such as ‘Shi’a’ and ‘Sunni’ or this or that label for a very long time.  We have become entrenched in positions that do not allow us to consider the points and positions of other Muslims whom do not belong to our respective camps.   If you were born in Pakistan it is highly likely that you are a Sunni Muslim, and more than likely following the Hanafi school of jurisprudence, and more than likely influenced by either the divides of the Barelwi and Deobandi.

If your a convert like myself, it is likely that you happened a Mosque that was ‘Salafi’ in orientation or maybe even of the ‘Ahmadiyyah movement’, or possibly a Sunni Mosque that was orientated towards the ‘Naqshabandi tariqah’: one of many Sufi orders in the Muslims world.

What happens is as born and raised Muslims we never get a chance to really investigate what we were brought up with.  We are just supposed to follow.  As convert Muslims it may seem as if it is a matter of rolling the dice; and being instructed by one of the myriad views, held among those who are called Muslims.

Prima-Qur’an is NOT a sect!

Sectarianism is categorically forbidden in Islam.

“As for those who divide their religion and break up into  shias (sects), you have no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.” (Holy Qur’an, 6:159)

Diagram A

If we look at the diagram above we can see that prior to the civil wars among the Muslims.  Muslims were known only as Muslims.  There was no other distinctive appellation.  However, after the civil wars among the Muslims they split into three major shi’a (sects).

The Shi’a (sect) of Muaviyah which latter innovated the appellation ‘Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah’  and they are also known as ‘Sunni Shi’a’ or Sunni sect  This term ‘Sunni’ is used for a broad definition for a federation of various sub sects that use this term,‘Sunni’.

You also have the Shi’a (sect) of Ali  which latter innovated the appellation the ‘Ithna Asheri’ or 12ers.  The term Shi’a is used for a broad definition of a federation of various sub sects that use the term ‘Shi’a’

There was another loosely Shi’a (sect) of Ali that are known as the ‘Ghuraba’ or and latter they innovated the appellation of the ‘Ibadi’.

Thus we have three major sects with a myriad number of sub sects.

1) The Ithna Asheri Shi’a (or 12er Imam sect)

2) The Sunni Shi’a ( or Sunni sect)

3) The Ibadi Shi’a (or Ibadi sect)

 If someone ask me ‘What kind of Muslim are you?’ I simply say to them, ‘I have not been given a more beautiful name other than Muslim’.

“And strive for Allah with the striving due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. [It is] the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you “Muslims” before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people.” (Holy Qur’an 22:78)

Prima-Qur’an is a debate with in the paradigm of Islam.  We encourage Muslims to pray in all Masjids.  We encourage Muslims to have fellowship with all Muslims. We encourage Muslims to trade and do business with all Muslims.

It is simply a methodology or approach that I think will be helpful to many and Allah knows best.  The purpose here is not to come along and change everything you know.  This is not the purpose of Prima-Qur’an. 

“Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is  guided” (Holy Qur’an 16:125)

We ask Allah to keep us humble, and sincere.   Welcome to Prima-Qur’an and I hope that Allah enriches you by this site and that you yourselves enrich others through your contributions.

“It is not for any human being  that Allah should give him the Book, and the wisdom and the Prophethood that he should than say to men: ‘Be devoted to me rather than Allah; but rather (he would say): “Become men of Allah by spreading the knowledge of the divine writ, and by your own deep study of it.”  (Holy Qur’an 3:79)

“Allah puts forth a Parable a man belonging to many partners at variance with each other, and a man belonging entirely to one master: are those two equal in comparison? Praise be to Allah! but most of them have no knowledge.” (Holy Qur’an 39:29)

“And be not as those who divided and differed among themselves after the clear proofs had come to them” (Holy Qur’an 3:105)

Sincerely,

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34 responses to “About Prima Quran

  1. Muslim

    Mashallah….I applaud the tone and substance of this website. I hope all Muslims can be be exposed to such an understanding.

    Inshallah! Ya Allah please,have us all benefit from such an understanding….and please guide us and the one behind this website closer to you.

    • Thank you for your feed back. This is a challenging enterprise so your du’a is most welcomed. If there is anything that I want more it is increased unity among Muslims. As to your du’a ameen wa ‘ajmaeen!

  2. ASA – Thanks for your blog. I feel you’ve done an excellent job, and pray that other Muslims are open to what you’re trying to relate to them. Please take a look at my site shariahandfiqh.org where I posted an article entitled “Shariah – Lost in Translation”. I believe you will find your ideas echoed throughout. JK WS.

    • Bismillah,

      walakum salaam wr wb, Thank you for your feed back respected brother. I am at your service and the service of the Muslim ummah. I have had a look at your site. It seems quite new and I did enjoy your distinction between ‘Shariah’ and ‘Fiqh’. It is too true that we forget that fiqh is a human endeavor. A very Blessed Ramadan Mubarak to you, your family and loved ones.

      • ASA Brother. Thanks for your response and taking out some time to review my site. May Allah(S) reward you for your efforts. JK WS.

  3. Almir

    Peace be with you
    Through my curiosity about the teachings of Dr jon brown I ended up on this website. And after a little bit of reading into this, I see that we view the quran quite similarly. It is indeed the Criterion, and thank god that we have been given the complete truth in the quran and nothing has been left out of it. I pray that more people can begin to learn the true tenets of Islam according to the quran. Praise be to god. Peace be with you

    • Almir,

      Peace be unto you. This web site is not intended to ‘change everything you know’. Al hamdulillah for the most part Islam as we have today is what the Blessed Messenger (saw) was upon. As far as Dr. Jonathan Brown, his lectures don’t go over well for me. However, his book “Hadith: Muihammad’s Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World’ is absolutely amazing and it should be in anyone’s library. If you read his scholarly work, and listen to some of his lectures it is like two different people. May Allah (swt) continue to bless him in the good he provides, and may Allah (swt) forgive him and us our mistakes.
      The Qur’an has clearly said that the Blessed Messenger (saw) explains the Qur’an for us. So unlike the Sola-Qur’an or Qur’an only camp who see the Blessed Messenger (saw) as a mailman the Holy Qur’an itself refutes this view. Peace be with you.

  4. Ammar

    Thanks for your blog brother. I bumped into your blog while looking for stuff from Johnathan Brown. I am what you call a “traditionalist” muslim. However, there are days when I am frustrated and looking into alternatives. Unfortunately, I thought that the only other alternative is Quran-only which I never found convincing. What you have said on this intro page is a call deep from my heart. Though I do realize its a huge endeavour requiring a lot of time and courage

    I will be diligently reading thru your entries and may Allah bless you and have mercy on us

    • Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem,

      respected brother Ammar, I too am a ‘traditionalist’ Muslim. If your a parent or one day become one (insh’Allah) you will see that taqlid is ingrained into our being. We are imitators, we follow and we take from those who came before us. This is obvious. Yet, Allah (swt) has also endowed us with a conscience. He has given us a heart.

      Think about this. When Moses (alayhi salam) was receiving revelation from Allah (swt) his people (his companions) were at the bottom of the mountain worshiping the golden calf! Can you imagine?

      When we look at Christianity, Isa (alayhi salam) went from being a Messenger of Allah (swt) to being the Son of God, to God the Son! Something really bad must have happened in the very early stages of Christianity for it to take a turn like this.

      If we reflect upon this verse of the Holy Qur’an it is quite frightening

      “Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.” (Holy Qur’an 2:79)

      When we reflect that Musa (alayhi salam) entrusted the Torah to his scholars, we must than ask who indeed corrupted and manipulated the Torah? Obviously it wasn’t you or I. It wasn’t the layman.

      So we as Muslims are emotionally detached from Judaism and Christianity we have no qualms about talking about how their traditions were corrupted. Yet, our early community had several internal civil wars, theological debates in which this party declares that part ‘outside the fold of Islam’ and it goes on and on.

      The ummah is waking up. The theological and sectarian divides. The exclusive claims of certain groups. So we are in a conundrum. We as Muslims believe deep in our heart Islam is the truth, the Holy Qur’an is beautiful. Many of the teachings of Rasul Allah (saw) are beautiful, they melt our heart and instill in us compassion and hope. Yet, at the same time there is a current among the Ummah, a feeling that there is something deeply wrong.

      In my humble studies, it is has become evidently clear that we have gotten away from the primary source of our tradition, the Holy Qur’an. We have allowed the sectarian and theological divides of our shared narrative blind us.

      We think critically about other traditions and not our own,. Allah (swt) has stated clearly that he strongly dislikes inconsistent measuring sticks.

      “O you who have believed, why do you say what you do not do?
      It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not.”
      (Holy Qur’an 61:2-3)

      I hope that you contribute here at Prima-Qur’an. Please feel free to add your thoughts, objections and critique. It is how we will grow and learn insh’allah.

      “I will be diligently reading thru your entries and may Allah bless you and have mercy on us”

      Ameen wa ‘ajmaeen! I am at your service and at the service of the community of the Blessed Messenger (saw).

  5. as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh brother,

    I am very interested in your views on Qur’an over Hadith, and your adherence to scientific truths. As a student of both the Islamic Sciences as well as science (primarily neuroscience at the university level), I feel very attuned to the same sort of ideology. I hail from the Ahmadiyyah movement, of which I consider a Sufi order of sorts, under a Khilafah.

    I hope we may be able to engage in some constructive dialogue. Please read my article: http://mysticscientist.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/sign-of-the-eclipses-for-the-imam-mahdi/

    Wassalam,
    Your brother,

    Tayyab ibn al-I’jāz

    • Bismillah,

      walakum salaam wr wb,

      Dear respected brother I thank you for your comments.

      My experience with the Ahmadiyyat and Lahori movements have been primarily through an Arab who left ‘Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah’ to become an Ahmadi.

      I once went with him to an Ahmadi mosque in Milwaukee Wisconsin. I was open to hearing their message and perspective on things.

      I must say that I enjoyed the book ‘Jesus in India’ and the whole Muslim world should be indebted to the Ahmadi for their translations of the Qur’an into English.

      However, I ultimately was not convinced of the Ahmadi movement for a number of reasons.

      #1) I feel that the Ahmadi interpretations of Jesus descending in Damascus (and making them apply to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) were quite forced.

      A person would have to already be an Ahmadi and need to defend the position at all cost to buy such interpretations.

      #2) Both the Lahori and Ahmadi NEED Jesus to be on the Cross (though as they claim he survived.)

      It is my view that the cross is non historical. There is no proof that Jesus was even on a cross. To me a ‘Messiah’ would have enough inspiration not to make this kind of blunder.

      #3) That the idea that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad may not be the ‘only prophet’ but that many may come I also found troubling.

      If the Ahmadi position is that the ‘seal of the prophets’ means that more prophets can come, how come we haven’t had a prophet in over 100 plus years? Can we expect one soon?

      I am pretty sure with all the madness in the world today a divinely appointed Prophet would be a breath of fresh air.

      Lastly, I pay absolutely no regard to any idea that Jesus will be returning (in any iteration) or that any Mahdi will be arriving.

      My position on such views are the same as the famous Muslim scholar Ibn Khaldun.

      I thank you for your comments. May Allah (swt) guide us all to what he loves.

      Sincerely,

      • as-Salamu ‘Alaykum dear brother,

        I am very delighted to see your scholarly and intellectual comments. I am quite interested to note that you don’t adhere to the idea of a Messiah or Mahdi similar to Ibn Khaldun. It is no doubt, a rational position (ahadith regarding the Messiah and Mahdi non-withstanding) as I personally think that ‘Isa (as) residing in the sky or heaven for 2,000 years doesn’t quite bode well with me.

        In addition, seeing as Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as well as his khulafa’ repeatedly called themselves a part of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jama’ah, I feel that becoming an Ahmadi is not really leaving that body of believers. It’s just joining a new group of Messianic Muslims, although still within the group of Muslims known as Sunnis.

        Furthermore, I do not wish to engage in polemical debate however I will attempt to address your points:

        1.) Inasmuch as Jesus descending in Damascus is concerned, that is not the ‘aqidah of the Ahmadis. We believe that there are a myriad of ahadith (as I’m sure you are also aware) with contradictory statements in regards to where the Messiah shall arrive. For instance:

        Bayt al-Maqdis (Palestine):
        “In that period, there would be few Arabs and most of them will be in Bayt al-Maqdis (in Palestine). Their Imām would be the Mahdī. (It will happen one day) their Imām will proceed to lead the congregation of Fajr when ‘Īsā Ibn Maryam will descend among them.” (Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood, Ibn Khazaymah, and Hakim p. 75)

        Valley ‘Afīq (Jordan):
        “And Muslims will (finally) concentrate in the valley ‘Afīq. (A 2-mile long valley in Jordan)…Then at the time of Fajr prayers, ‘Īsā Ibn Maryam will come.” (Musnad Ahmad, Ibn Abi Shaybah, Mu‘jam Kabīr wa Awsaṭ wa Ṣaghīr, Hakim, and Durr al-Manthūr)

        Dukhān Mountain (Syria):
        “The Muslims will flee to the Jabl Dukhān in Syria and Dajjāl will pursue them and surround them there. This will be a very severe siege. The Muslims will be in much difficulty. Then at the time of Fajr,‘Īsā Ibn Maryam will come down.” (Musnad Ahmad, Mustadrik Hakim p. 90)

        And the Damascus hadith, which is as follows:
        شق ينزل عيسى بن مريم عند المنارة البيضاء شرقي
        “Jesus son of Mary will descend near a white minaret to the East of Damascus” (Sahīh Muslim)

        Explanation:
        – Qadian is directly East of Damascus
        – There is a white minaret in Qadian, and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was born near it
        – There was no white minaret near or in Damascus during the time of the Prophet (sa) when he made such a statement
        – Meaning of nuzūl نزول (as said in this hadīth, ينزل ‘he will descend’) literally means “descent” but can also mean to “appear” or “be manifest” and never means “to come down from the sky”. In this hadīth, it means that the Messiah will appear, and not descend down from the sky, as Seyyidina ‘Īsa is dead according to the Qur’an, Ahadith, and Salaf. In the Qur’ān itself, the word nuzūl and its various derivatives appear 293 times, and mostly every single time (with the exception of the sending down of iron, حديد hadīd perhaps from the sky, الله أعلم ), it means to “appear” rather than “descend from the sky”. The only time the word is used for a human, it is used for the Prophet Muhammad (sa), and no Muslim believes he descended from the sky. It says for instance (and these are not all the examples):

        ثُمَّ أَنزَلََ اللهَُّ سَكِينَتَهُ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ
        “Then Allāh sent down tranquility upon His Messenger.” (Sūrah al-Tawbah, 9:26)

        آيَاتِ اللهَِّ رَّسُو ا لً يَتْلُوعَلَيْكُمْ قَدْ أَنزَلََ اللهَُّ إِلَيْكُمْ ذِكْ ا را
        “Surely Allāh sent down to you a Reminder, the Messenger, who recites unto you the Signs of Allāh.” (Sūrah al-Talāq, 65:11-12)

        وَ أَنزَلََ لَكُم مِّنَ الَْْنْعَامِ ثَمَانِيَةَ أَزْوَا ج
        “And I have sent down to you from the eight head of cattle in pairs.” (Sūrah al-Zumar, 39:7)

        قَدْ أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ لِبَا ا سا يُوَارِي سَوْآتِكُمْ وَرِي ا شا
        “We have indeed sent down to you clothes to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you.” (Sūrah al-A’rāf, 7:27)

        Moreover, a book of ancient classical Arabic poetry called Hamāsa composed by Labīb ibn ‘Aws al-Ta’ī (nicknamed Abū Tamām) has the following statement:
        نزلت على آل المهلب شانيا غريب من الْوطان في زمن المحل
        “I came and stayed with the children of Muhallab as a guest’ in winter, while I was a stranger, in the days of famine.” (Hamāsa)

        Here, the word nazalat نزلت means ‘I came and stayed’ rather than ‘I flew down from the sky.’

        Also, Lane’s Arabic-English Lexicon lists the word nazala نزل and its various derivations to mean “he settled, made him his guest, occupied, became the position or occupation of, alighted, stopped or sojourned or lodged in the place.”

        Therefore, if the hadith means that the Messiah will ‘settle himself in, stop in his journey in, or lodge himself in’ a place ‘inda عند (near) a white minaret, to the East of Damascus, this clearly happened with Seyyidina Ahmad who lived in a place near a white minaret to the East of Damascus. There is a more in-depth explanation of this hadith based on tasawwuf in one of his books known as Izala-e-Awham, but this should suffice for now.

        2.) I’m not sure I know of the historicity regarding Jesus being placed on the cross, but inasmuch as I’ve read the literature by Islamic scholars of the past, they mostly seem to say he was not placed on the cross, however modern unbiased scholars of Islamic Studies and Christology have deduced that such a position is based mostly on conjecture, and Jesus most undoubtedly must have been on the cross.

        For instance, in the new book “Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth” by Reza Aslan, he goes against the mainstream Islamic position of Jesus not being crucified but another in his stead and instead says that he was crucified based on the earliest historical accounts.

        Here is an interesting research paper on the history of Jesus being placed on the cross or a person in his stead, based on the writings of Islamic scholars throughout the ages: http://www3.nd.edu/~reynolds/index_files/jesus%20dead%20or%20alive.pdf

        3.) The Ahmadi position (misunderstood by many lay-Ahmadis) is that the Prophet Muhammad (sa) is the Seal of the Prophets, meaning no new prophet can come after him. However, as the Khatām al-‘Anbiyā’, prophets through burūz and ẓill (shadow and mirror reflection) may appear through him via fanā fī al-rasūl (complete extinction and annihilation in the Prophet). This does not break his seal of nabūwwah. This was a position shared by many of the awliyā’ of the past including Ibn ‘Arabī and Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qādir, etc.

        Regarding any future prophets, the Ahmadi position is not that many prophets may appear. The Ahmadi position is that only one new prophet will appear (again through fanā fī al-rasūl). And in the meantime there will be Divine Caliphate. The statement of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself to this effect is as follows:

        “As it has been disclosed to me through visions, the soul of Hadrat Masih (as) [Messiah] was in travail on account of the falsehoods that had been attributed to him in this age, and fervently desired the descent to the earth of one spiritually his like and he supplicated God Almighty to that effect. So God Almighty responded to his agitation and sent his like into the world so that the promise, already made, should be fulfilled….

        The soul of Hadrat Masih, peace be upon him, had two occasions to demand a substitute. The first was six hundred years after his death. This was when the Jews insisted more than ever that he was an impostor and a liar and that his birth was illegitimate and that is why he died on the cross. On the other hand, the Christians proclaimed that he was the son of God and even God himself, and that he had laid down his life on the cross for the salvation of mankind….

        It was then that the soul of the Masih [Messiah] was moved, in accordance with Allah’s will, and demanded to be exonerated from all these charges and beseeched God for a substitute. Thereupon, the Holy Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was raised… This was the first agitation of the soul of Jesus of Nazareth which achieved its purpose in the advent of our lord and master, our Messiah, the Seal of Prophets, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him فالحمد لله.

        The second time when the soul of the Masih was agitated was when the Christians completely assumed the qualities of Antichrist…Thus in this age the soul of the Masih was agitated a second time and longed for his substitute to appear in the world. When this desire reached its climax, God Almighty raised one who was his spiritual reflection to defeat the Antichrist of this age. This spiritual reflection, by coming in the likeness of the Masih, is called the Promised Messiah.…

        On account of the current troubles, it was only the advent of the Masih that was called for. It was his people who had been corrupted and among whom the qualities of the Antichrist had spread. Therefore, it was only proper that the soul of the Masih should have been agitated.

        This is the subtle spiritual comprehension that has been bestowed upon me through a vision.

        It has also been disclosed to me that, after a time of piety and purity and the supremacy of Divine unity, the world will again return to polytheism and transgression. Some will devour others like insects, ignorance will prevail, the Masih [Messiah] will be worshipped once again, and the error of creature-worship will be widespread. All this mischief will proceed out of Christianity in the last part of these latter days.

        Then again the soul of the Masih will be greatly troubled and will seek its descent in a majestic form. Then, with the advent of an awe-striking semblance of his, this age will come to an end. That will be the end and the expanse of the world will be rolled up.

        This shows that on account of the unworthy behaviour of the followers of the Masih, it had been decreed that the spirituality of the Masih should descend into the world three times.”

        – Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in A’ina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam 341–346, Ruhani Khaza’in, vol. 5, pp. 341–346

        Wa’s-Salām,

        Tayyab

  6. Pingback: Conversations with a member of the Ahmadi Sect | primaquran

  7. Bismillah,

    walakum salam wr wb respected brother

    I have responded to your rejoinder here:
    https://primaquran.wordpress.com/2013/09/17/conversations-with-a-member-of-the-ahmadi-sect/

    As you have posted a link to your web site I would appreciate if you would reciprocate in kind. That would seem fair.

    Have a blessed weekend ahead.

  8. Sabrina

    I really appreciate your work. I will remain indebted to you if you write a piece on Poetry also as there are contradictory reports regarding Poets also in Bukhari and Muslim & oblige.

    • Bismillah,

      Thank you Sabrina for your comment. Which ahadith did you have in mind in particular?

      • sabrina

        “A belly filled with puss is better than Poetry” -Sahih Muslim

      • sabrina

        And kindly explain Hadiths- women will be the majority in hell because they are ungrateful to their husbands and are deficient in religion and intellect because they dont offer prayers during menstruation and 2 women witnesses are required for financial transactions, Actually it will be great (and i will remain indebted) if you write a piece on misogyny in hadiths . thanks in advance.

      • sabrina

        “Poetry and chess are forbidden”_Muslim/bukhari “Those who follow poets will go astray”-Quran(Quoted out of context) “Surely in some poetry is Wisdom”-hadith

  9. sabrina

    When we read Quran, we dont see any sweeping generalizations against Women while hadith literature is full of misogyny, I request your goodself to write a piece on this and oblige.

  10. razorrahmon

    Salam Alaikum brother. Thanks for your good work and I for one have agree with the Prima Quran Philosophy. I have some questions however. In our effort to adhere to Allah’s timeless guidance, we subject all hadith to see if it tallys with the quranice guidance and so we don’t throw out hadith and scholarly opinions entirely. Scholalry opinions, like the sciences, are studied attempts to decipher the beautiful meanings of the quranic guidance and they may be time bound (time bound sunnah), contextual to a grouo of people and also they are honest human attempts and so we may grant them the warrant of error. One scholarly opinion may replace another after more knwoeldge has been sought. This makes it dynamic and also a continued human effort at listening to Allah, in both perfect and imperfect ways. As for hadith, i do seem to have a dilemma. If we hear a hadith that contradicts the quran (there are many btw), and we decide to not follow it and we only follow the “right” hadith, then from an outside view, a person may say we are “cherry picking” hadith, those that are good and rejecting those that are “bad”. It also makes an insecure platform as the source of both types of Hadith are supposedly Prophet Mohammed. This calls into question the authencity of the chain of narrators and the collectors of Hadith.

    How are we then to deal with the Hadith Literature if the authencity of the narrators, compilers and the Hadith itself is called into question? Maybe Hadith A narrated by person B is in tandem with Quran and we accept it but Hadith C narrated by person B seems horrible and we reject it…it seems puzzling.

    Also just because Hadith A stated that Prophet Mohammed said this, should a universal Muslim law be made of it? .

    I agree with some of the arguments of the Sola Quran group but I feel that they too have gone overboard in stretching the intrepretation to fit their own contexts and sometimes insisting that theirs is the correct version.

    I beleive you will have the informed response to this and humbly seek your advice.

    Thank You

    • razorrahmon.

      Thank you for your very well put forward questions.

      “How are we then to deal with the Hadith Literature if the authencity of the narrators, compilers and the Hadith itself is called into question? Maybe Hadith A narrated by person B is in tandem with Quran and we accept it but Hadith C narrated by person B seems horrible and we reject it…it seems puzzling.”

      This is a very good question. My response would not be satisfactory to the critics as they would still say we would be ‘cherry picking’.

      Other than meeting the criteria already given, there is the criteria of the Holy Qur’an (hence the name Prima Qur’an).

      And thus I see what your saying. If this man was good enough to narrate this hadith and we deem it good, for example “to smile is charity’ what about another hadith with this same man and narrators who say, “fight those who do not submit to Islam” for example…

      Well, even in the Sunni tradition they will accept the same narrator and disregard him latter. Why? Because they have seen that when a person is younger his memory maybe strong, as he gets older his memory maybe weaker.

      We also have the case of statements not coming down to us in exact word form.

      We also cannot rule out simple human behavior. Many of us are very good people, we work, we love and support our families but we get caught in politics, rivalry, our own ego and ideals.

      Of course for Sunni’s this is something not acceptable, but the proof is that companions did exactly that.

      So at the end of the day there could be further criteria added and ultimately we are safe if we use the Holy Qur’an as the underlying criteria.

      Thank you for the opportunity beloved brother.

  11. This is a very dubious islamic site You appear to be very anonymous

    • You are free to make your accusations. As far as being anonymous until we (as an ummah) can move away from death threats, and fatawah requiring someone to be killed for having a different position. Pardon me.

      • mohammad

        Then what is your name and credentials? We do not take our deen from unknown people.

      • My name nor my credentials are not important. All too often they become issues of ad hominen and distract from dealing with the presentation in a meaningful way. Your statement is ambiguous. “We do not take our deen from unknown people.” Because, in this case We (myself and those reading this) have no idea who the ‘We’ is here. So this itself is problematic and inconsistent. A unidentified ambiguous ‘We’ asking for identification from someone or something else.

        Secondly you would have to define what is meant by ‘known’ versus ‘unknown’. I know that this statement is generally attributed to Muhammad ibn Sareeh (raheemullah).

        What would better suit you and those of you who take such an approach when interacting with others is to say something like “We do not take our deen from people we can’t trust.”

        Because everyone eventually takes their deen from someone they don’t truly know.

        The 12er Shi’a have a ‘hidden imam’ who apparently guides and directs the faithful. How many 12er Shi’a have seen him or met him? How many of them ‘know’ him? Or do they trust those who claim they are in contact with him? Most likely the latter.

        How many ‘Sheikhs’ of Sufi Tariqah give esoteric knowledge from the unseen realm. Do you know these figures/beings from the ‘unseen realm’ ? Logic says you do not, but you have confidence or trust in your Sheikh that this person is delivering the goods.

        Than you have the issue of the Mursal ahadith. Going only back to a Tabieen. Maybe for some that is good enough. If a Tabieen said it you can take it to the bank. However; for others that is not good enough because the chain does not go back to the Blessed Messenger (saw); there is an assumption of piety, scrupulousness and truth telling.

        In reality most of you, and I am assuming yourself as well have no idea where your taking your deen from.

        Why do I say this? Because I am assuming that you consider yourself a layman. As a layman you are in no position to actually weigh in on who is and who is not someone you can ‘take your deen from’. You simply rely upon trust.

        Or We (myself and the readers) could ask you. Why do you take your religion from the people you take your religion from? What decisions lead you to this? What thought processes? What was the rationale?

        Can you logically explain to us how you can choose whom your teachers would be when your not in a position to assess them yourself? Did you fact check what they said?

        This seems like circular reasoning; and it could lead one to joining groups like ISIS unfortunately.

        If you are not able to interact with the material that is presented in a meaningful and constructive way than I can respect that.

    • muhammad

      Yes totally agreed. Similarly, how a person is not recognised as an engineer or doctor without qualification, a jahil person is also similarly rejected when he speaks about islam which contradicts ijmaa’. A jahil person weakens the chain in hadith. Likewise, a missing person in the hadith makes it idtirab. This is the same for this blog.

      • Bismillah. Unfortunately you do not ‘totally agree’ with what I have said or you would not have followed up with the typical name calling. The name calling which proceeds from those who cannot interact with the material. I also noticed that you blocked me.

        The difference between us is that I do not believe in censorship and I do my best not to have a condescending tone towards any truth seekers who visit here.

        “Great is hatred in the sight of Allah that you say what you do not do.” (Holy Qur’an 61:3)

        In other words in my first response to you I have stated:

        “Your statement is ambiguous. “We do not take our deen from unknown people.” Because, in this case We (myself and those reading this) have no idea who the ‘We’ is here. So this itself is problematic and inconsistent. A unidentified ambiguous ‘We’ asking for identification from someone or something else.”

        So the readers have no idea who you are muhammad. We have no idea who is this ambiguous ‘We’ that you are making a reference here to.

        So let us entertain you. Let us say for example that we say this is a good premise. We do not take our deen from people we do not know.

        So than this should mean that we take our deen from people we do know?

        You have not addressed any of the questions put to you. What is ‘knowing’ someone?

        Are qualifications and degrees enough?

        If that is the case why don’t you become a Christian if I present to you a well known Christian academic or scholar?

        If you are from the Sunni sect, and I present to you a well known Shi’a academic and scholar will you accept what they have to say?

        If you are from the Shi’a sect, and I present to you a well known Sunni academic and scholar will you accept what they have to say?

        If you are from the ‘Sunni’ will you accept what a well known Salafi scholar and academic says? Especially If you lean towards Sufism? Will you accept what a well known Sufi scholar and academic says if you lean towards Salafism?

        If you are Brevli will you accept what a well known Deobandi scholar and academic says?

        If you are a Deobandi will you accept what a well known Brevli scholar and academic says?

        I think you have avoided some very pressing questions.

        Why do I say this? Because I am assuming that you consider yourself a layman. As a layman you are in no position to actually weigh in on who is and who is not someone you can ‘take your deen from’. You simply rely upon trust.

        Or We (myself and the readers) could ask you.
        A) Why do you take your religion from the people you take your religion from?
        B) What decisions lead you to this?
        C) What thought processes?
        D) What was the rationale?

        Can you logically explain to us how you can choose whom your teachers would be when your not in a position to assess them yourself? Did you fact check what they said?

        So here is what we are left with.

        1) An unidentified person claiming to speak on behalf of an unidentified ‘We’. As Allah (s.w.t) mentions it is hateful that you say what you do not do.

        2) An inability to engage in any of the points addressed to you.

  12. Masud

    Moderator…..why do you even respond to people who have zero chance of even entertaining what you’re saying? I’ve learned long ago, spend time with those who have genuine questions, not those who are “deaf, dumb, and blind”. It pains me to see you put so much effort in replying to such Muqalidun, who really have no ability to think for themselves (in the area of religion). WS.

    • Thank you respected brother. It is the policy not to censor any comments (unless there the vulgarities are abundant). I also censor post that really don’t add anything to the conversation or interact with the material in meaningful way. Examples being comments like “Want some pizza?” “LoL” and so forth. I am cautious not to let anyone waste my time.

      It is also done to allow others to learn. Maybe this person has no interest to engage in a meaningful way.

      However; Allah-willing, it is hoped that others reading will find the discussion eye opening.

      They will assess the conversation. It is hoped they will see the perspectives of each side and weigh the merits of the arguments.

      For example it is hoped that in this exchange people would see that A) even if I was an identified source, that still would not be enough for people like “muhammad” and others to accept Prima-Qur’an.

      Secondly to point out the inconsistency of their position.

      The whole thrust of the argument is that I am some layman who hasn’t a clue. Yet, they are unable to effectively tell us as layman the who/what/when/where/why/and how of whom to follow.

      As a layman how would we assess this? You would have to have some criteria and judgement. So it ends up becoming a circular argument devoid of sound reasoning.

      Ty for your comment respected brother.

    • Most of the people like “Muhammad” are not capable of interacting with the material. So they continue to defy Allah (swt) .

      “Great is hatred in the sight of Allah that you say what you do not do.” (Holy Qur’an 61:3)

      We also know that the Holy Qur’an teaches us that hypocrites have the worse place in the hell fire. Now only Allah (swt) truly knows how “muhammad” will meet his end; but it is blatantly clear that he is inconsistent; and flaunting the injunction given by Allah (swt).

      He has exhausted what he can bring to the table. That now stands on the record.

  13. Masud

    He seems pretty capable to me…..whereas you come off as a self righteous person quick to label people hypocrites; unfortunately the Muslim community seems to have been cursed with a large number of people like you….who always seem to know the hearts of men.

    53:32 As for those who avoid the [truly] grave sins and shameful deeds – even though they may sometimes stumble behold, thy Sustainer is abounding in forgiveness. He is fully aware of you when He brings you into being out of dust, and when you are still hidden in your mothers’ wombs: do not, then, consider yourselves pure – [for] He knows best as to who is conscious of Him.

    You ever even consider the possibility that the moderator, whether right or wrong, is in search for the truth? Maybe he comes around to your perceived “correct” position, and maybe you come around to his, or maybe something in between? But your language shows the certainty with which you speak, which is the truly grave sin of arrogance….it oozes from you….and it stinks!

  14. Masud

    Moderator…..I thought the last post was by Muhammad and not you….it was meant for “Muhammad”. 🙂

    • No worries respected brother.

      “Those men,-(Allah) knows what is in their hearts; so keep clear of them, but admonish them, and speak to them a word to reach their very souls.” (Holy Qur’an 4:63)

      Only Allah (swt) truly knows what is in our hearts. Only Allah (swt) knows his end and ours.

      He was admonished, twice concerning the verse in the Holy Qur’an about enjoining that which he , himself does not undertake. This will now be the third time the verse is quoted.

      “Great is hatred in the sight of Allah that you say what you do not do.” (Holy Qur’an 61:3)

      Allah (swt) understand that we, all of us have short comings. Yet, time and time again how many are oppressed, brow beaten, silenced, ostracized, humiliated and shamed by people who turn our to be sanctimonious, dishonest, and inconsistent.

      “Verily the hypocrites are in the lowest stage of the Fire, and never you shall find a helper for them. EXCEPT THOSE WHO REPENT, and amend and hold fast to (the grace of) Allah and make their religion pure for Allah. These, then, are with the believers; and Allah will grant the believers a great reward.” (Holy Qur’an 4:145-146)

      I believe it is the last we have heard from “Muhammad”. Wallahu ‘Alim.

      May Allah (swt) guide him and guide us.

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